The Bible

Thank you Civ, I'm glad you pointed that out. Misunderstanding the scripture is one of the worst things that can happen. Lee, all of the references you are going back to are often referring to the current time. Though most of the bible is hard to understand, and thus has hidden meanings that take a keen mind to comprehend, this is not one of those instances, sorry Lee, I'm not your enemy but I'm afraid that your wrong this time.

Only chiming in here for a minute, but I once heard that the Bible states that Jesus will return to earth something like a hundred years, maybe less, after the restoration of Israel. Of course, Israel was restored to the Jewish people in 1948. Which doesn't give us much time... I know it sounds like a cheap conspiracy theory, but, has anyone else ever heard this?

Cant say that I have ever seen that written in the bible. Ask Civ, she'l know.

Civility_C wrote:

UM.. Lee, those most of those are out of context or don't have anything to do with this.

Isiah 9:6-7 "For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; And the government will be unpon his shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of peace. Of the increase of His government and peace There shall be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His Kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgement and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this."

Psalm 22: 27-28 "All the end of the world Shall remember and turn to the Lord, And all the families of the nations Shall worship before You. For the kingdom is the Lord's, and He rules over the nations."

Psalm 2:1-12 "Why do the nations rage, and the people plot a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves and the rulerss take counsle together agaisnt the Lord and against His Annointed saying, "Let us break Their bonds in peices and cast away Their cords from us." He who sit in the heaven shall laugh; The Lord shall hold them in derision. Then he shall speak to them in His wrath and distress them in His deep displeasure: "Yet I have set My King On my holy hill of Zion." I will declare the decree: "The Lord has said to ME, You are My Son, today I have begotten you. Ask of me and I will give you the nothions for your inheritance and the ends of the earth for Your possesion. You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to peices like a potters vessel." Now therefor be wise O kings, be instructed you judges of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, And rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who trust in Him.

You see Lee, all these verses point to Jesus setting up his kingdom. Notice all the "I's, He, God"? It says nothing about the church setting up the kingdom.


Sorry I didn't take the time to do all of them. I would, but I can't right now.

So what? I agree... It is Jesus who is setting up his kingdom... that is what I was saying. I am simply saying that I believe that the world is going to get better and better before Jesus returns... I believe that those verses support my claim. Im not saying that we can set up Christ's kingdom without God. You know... we dont even disagree that it is the Lord who sets up his church. That is not what I started the disscussion about.

Your friend General Lee

I've never heard that so no, I don't know. I wouldn't think its true since no one knows the date or time or anything except God.

Civility_C wrote:

I've never heard that so no, I don't know. I wouldn't think its true since no one knows the date or time or anything except God.

Thats about what Id say. Btw Its interesting... Me and you posted at the same time earlier today...

In Revalation it says things will only get worse before Christ returns.

didnt Jesus say "Surely I say to you, this generation will not pass away before these things come to pass." He was referring to the end times yes? Earthquakes, wars, famine. this sounds like tribulation to me. Note He said this was BEFORE he was going to come back. That is in the gospels.

Revaltion 6 also talks about this. The wrath of God will fall to this earth long before Christ returns.

1 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
Second Seal: Conflict on Earth



3 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see.” 4 Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.
Third Seal: Scarcity on Earth



5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.”
Fourth Seal: Widespread Death on Earth



7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” 8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.
Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs



9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances



12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

This explains itself pretty well, but just in case..

A Multitude from the Great Tribulation



9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:


“ Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Lee, I'm sorry. I thought you were saying that the church was going to set up God's kingdom.

Oppie: Thanks. I was getting ready to post something like that.

Sorry I beat you to it, I couldent resist lol.

Well thank you

The Opposition wrote:

In Revalation it says things will only get worse before Christ returns.

didnt Jesus say "Surely I say to you, this generation will not pass away before these things come to pass." He was referring to the end times yes? Earthquakes, wars, famine. this sounds like tribulation to me. Note He said this was BEFORE he was going to come back. That is in the gospels.

My Dear Oppie,
He obviously was not reffering to the end times... Note: He said "this generation WILL NOT pass away before these things come to pass...
That generation has obviously passed away and yet the end has not come... Those things mentioned... Earthquakes, wars, famines, all came to pass before that generation died... and they have continued to this day. Besides... what is so terrible about earthquakes, wars, and famines, that when ever one happens everyone desides we must be in the tribulation?
If they symbolize the tribulation then the tribulation must have started before Christ, because there were wars famines and earthquakes then too.
Please say if I understood you wrong...

The Opposition wrote:

Revaltion 6 also talks about this. The wrath of God will fall to this earth long before Christ returns.

1 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

This verse could actually be used as proof for my point... I believe that Christ is the one sitting on the white horse with the crown and so he is also the one winning. (this is my interpretation)

The Opposition wrote:

Second Seal: Conflict on Earth

3 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see.” 4 Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.

Does the earth have peace right now? No. Are people killing one another? Yes. So? It does not say that this signifies the tribulation... People have not had peace and have murdered since Cain.

The Opposition wrote:

Third Seal: Scarcity on Earth

5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.”

What do these verses prove?

The Opposition wrote:

Fourth Seal: Widespread Death on Earth

7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” 8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

Hades (also known as Hell or Death) has been working since before Christ... What does this verse prove?

The Opposition wrote:

Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

What does this verse prove? It does not say that the Lord is going to bring a great tribulation on earth to vindicate the Martyers... For all I can see they are just asking the Lord when the Judgement day is coming.

The Opposition wrote:

Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances

12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

This is not necessarily reffering to the tribulation... it could be refering to the Judgement day....

The Opposition wrote:

A Multitude from the Great Tribulation


13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Of course they came out of a great tribulation but what does that prove? From the way you have been talking ever since the fall has been the great tribulation...


My dear friends...
Im really sorry if I misunderstood anything.
I do not think that the world is going sin free or even death free before Christs return... What I believe is that the Lord is causing the Church to grow and defeat darkness.

Your friend General Lee

Perhaps. I am grateful for your point of view Lee, controvery often leads to unforseen truth. This is where I stand, whenever he comes, however he comes, I am going to be ready. Times and dates do not have an effect one me lol. I'm sure you feel the same way.

Lol thanks for your understanding. I too am grateful to hear your side of the story (so to speak)

Call it an interpretation. Thats really what it is. Its Civ's also so you have to give her credit to yah know.

Yes I am also glad to hear her side.

DCCCfC aka General Lee wrote:

...(this is my interpretation)

Lee, It doesn't matter what anything in the Bible means to you. I could say the sky was pink and that was "my interpretation." Does that mean its pink? Nope. It only matters what it says. Most of the time, when translated, the english version (and most others) lose a lot of what they say (Such as double negatives in the greek).

Just a point. I'll answer the rest of your post a little later when I have some time, ok?

You know shes right, languages such as greek and latin usually have about 3 different meanings for the same word. The english version of the bible is watered down. Though people like King James tried their best and for the most part suceeded to have it transylated, I cannot help thinking some things have been forgotten or misinterpreted. Do you see her point?

Interpretation means nothing. Its what is fact and flawless, the only way understand is to ask God to show us the truth through his eyes. Just a re-cap of Civ's statement

Civility_C wrote:

DCCCfC aka General Lee wrote:

...(this is my interpretation)

Lee, It doesn't matter what anything in the Bible means to you. I could say the sky was pink and that was "my interpretation." Does that mean its pink? Nope. It only matters what it says. Most of the time, when translated, the english version (and most others) lose a lot of what they say (Such as double negatives in the greek).

My Dear Friends
You have totally missunderstood me. You are absolutely right. It is not my interpretation which is most important, what is most important is what is right. But hear me out... the Pre-mil view is an interpretation as is the Post-mil view. But it does not disprove a view just because it is an interpretation. Example... I believe the sky is blue... this is my opinion... It does NOT disprove that the sky is blue just because it is my opinion... My opinion (interpretation) must be checked to see if it fits the facts... Namely... Look outside... Is the sky blue? Or read and study the Bible. Does my interpretation fit the facts and make sense? My interpretation of that verse makes sense to me but it might not make sense to you...
Ok so here is my reason for having said "this is my interpretation." Oppie was using this verse against me and since I dont believe that that verse supports his view but instead supports mine I told my side and in order that we could have good debate without hard feelings, I said that "this is my interpretation" so that you would understand, that I understand that, we are fallible people and will have different interpretations of things. Also so that you would not feel that I was trying to treat my opinion as infallible.
Your friend General Lee

PS if you dont understand what I was saying please say so.

DCCCfC aka General Lee wrote:

Does my interpretation fit the facts and make sense? My interpretation of that verse makes sense to me but it might not make sense to you...

From what I've seen, no, your "interpretation" does NOT fit the Bible. Postmillinialist take a lot of things figuratively. While there are some thing in the Bible to be taken that way, most thing are not. Reading in context, knowing some greek and latin, and knowing why words are placed the way they are is very important.

Would you tell me what I took out of context, or took figuratively that I shouldnt have?.... Id like to correct myself...
Your friend and humble servant
General Lee

Lee. Your humble attitude is comendable. But I'm afriad that we cant point out to you anything that you havent already seen.
(I'm not trying to speak for you Civ, you just arent on. )

Its very important that you reflect your views on Jesus's point of view. Its the only true source that we have to rely on. While I am not as sure as Civility as to when Christ is coming back, I do not disagree with her because I do not know. The bible does not give enough proof to satisfy the skeptisism that God has placed in me as part of my personality that I have about the end times. However, I do know that he's coming back, and I DO know enough to agree with the Idea that the much peril will take place before any kingdom on earth is put into place. Much of what you say is figurative, while what I am trying to communicate with you it much more physical.
This is from revalation which I posted earlier.

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

This says nothing about any future peril does it? Christ has obviously triumphed by now, all of his people are with him in whie robes before his throne. Doesnt this make you think about your view just a little bit?

Your peir, Oppie.

Btw,




"The Opposition wrote:

In Revalation it says things will only get worse before Christ returns.

didnt Jesus say "Surely I say to you, this generation will not pass away before these things come to pass." He was referring to the end times yes? Earthquakes, wars, famine. this sounds like tribulation to me. Note He said this was BEFORE he was going to come back. That is in the gospels.
My Dear Oppie,
He obviously was not reffering to the end times... Note: He said "this generation WILL NOT pass away before these things come to pass...
That generation has obviously passed away and yet the end has not come... Those things mentioned... Earthquakes, wars, famines, all came to pass before that generation died... and they have continued to this day. Besides... what is so terrible about earthquakes, wars, and famines, that when ever one happens everyone desides we must be in the tribulation?
If they symbolize the tribulation then the tribulation must have started before Christ, because there were wars famines and earthquakes then too.
Please say if I understood you wrong..."

The earthquakes and sunamies that have occured in the last 5 years have been larger then any before. Plus the fires that have been ravaging Ca for the past few months are far greater then any in the past. And nearly the entire planet going nuclear, North Korea pushing the limits, Iran, the attack on Israel, the exaustion of oil( even though more lies beneath the earths crust nobody is digging for it), all these add up to a seemingly clear conclusion.

Oppie I personally believe that if you would study history you would find that it was just as bad then as it is today. Nazis, volcanoes, Wars, (that btw took FAR more lives than the ones now days.) And look at China... The Christian population is GROWING there!
And about your earlier post. Our interpretations are still different... and just as you see no support for mine I see none for ours... I mean... I believe that right now there are martyers in heaven crying out for Gods judgement to fall on the sinners and I see no place in that verse where it says the all Gods people are crying out. Please tell me if you missunderstood so I can rephrase it.
Your friend and humble servant General Lee

Please do I am brain dead right now lol.

DCCCfC aka General Lee wrote:

Oppie I personally believe that if you would study history you would find that it was just as bad then as it is today. Nazis, volcanoes, Wars, (that btw took FAR more lives than the ones now days.) And look at China... The Christian population is GROWING there!
And about your earlier post. Our interpretations are still different... and just as you see no support for mine I see none for ours... I mean... I believe that right now there are martyers in heaven crying out for Gods judgement to fall on the sinners and I see no place in that verse where it says the all Gods people are crying out. Please tell me if you missunderstood so I can rephrase it.
Your friend and humble servant General Lee

Rephrased! lol jk