Harry Potter

I'm throwing this out here because I thought of this verse intantly after I read this post. Merely for thought.

"Anything not done unto faith, is sin." The reference escapes me, but that is the text.

DCCCfC aka General Lee wrote:

I am not being hypocritial if I am not even sure what is Biblical Jeb. BTW my dear Jeb Oppie is right (in my opinion) LoTR is different. I hate it that Tolkien aplied the term wizard to Gandalf... He was not a wizard in the way he acted, he was a seer.
Question 1: Did Gandalf use "magic" for himself in LoTR?
Question 2: Did HP use magic for himself in HP?
Question 3:Was there a diffence in how this "power" was gained/used?
Question 4: did Gandalf reject wrong power in LoTR?
Question 5: Did HP reject wrong power in HP?
Question 6: Was the power in HP something that was viewed as being able to be gained by other humans in HP?
Question 7: Was the good "power" in Middle earth something that was viewed as being able to be gained by humans in Middle earth?
Statement 1: Oppie is right. The power in LoTR was given to the "wizards" by the "God" of middle earth. (If you havent read the Silmarilion {the explanation of Middle earth by Tolkien} there is not alot of point in us trying prove it to you. Will you accept our word for it or will you read it? lol)
Statement 2: HP though a special Human was a human. Gandalf was not human he was "angelic being" (read the Silmarilion)

I understand that your stance that we are being hypocritial but I hope I am not being and am definentally trying not to be. Btw I have never said that it is sin to watch HP nor have I been trying to give you a guilt trip.

Your friend and humble servant,
General Lee

I'll reply to your stated questions one at a time, with my beliefs and/or understanding on the subject:


1. Gandalf obviously uses power for himself, even if it's only to defend himself from foes. If you mean to make himself more powerful, well, I don't think he did, but I don't even think that is possible for him to make himself more powerful than he already is, otherwise he would be holding back part of his power, and this wouldn't make sense, since all of his power is "good" and comes from the god that sent him. So, yes. And in the LotR books, he uses much more magic than he is portrayed as using in the movies.

2. Harry uses magic in school, obviously, through his magical education. Throughout the series he uses magic occasionally to defeat various evil powers, to protect himself and/or others. But no, he doesn't try to make himself more powerful by using dark magic. And if anyone could make themselves more powerful that easily, then there would be alot more dark lords. So, it's not that simple.

3. As for how their powers were gained, both Harry and Gandalf had their powers given to them; they were not obtained through ambition or ulterior motives. So, they do not differ in that way at all.

4. Yes, Gandalf rejected evil power.

5. Yes, Harry also rejects evil power, one time being when Voldemort offers to bring Harry's parents back to life in exchange for Harry's help, but Harry refuses. So, once again, HP and LotR do not differ in this respect.

6. No, the "special" powers that Harry possessed were inadvertantly given to him by the dark lord, in that evil power's attempt to kill him. This was the first and only time that such a thing happened, so, to answer the question, no.

7. If you mean the power possessed by Gandalf, obviously no.


Lee, it is commonly accepted that Gandalf was sent to Middle Earth by a "god". I've never read the Silmarilion, but I don't think that Tolkien ever stated Middle Earth's god to be the same as the Christian God. All I'm trying to say, is that to Christians, this god of Middle Earth, not being the Christian God, is no better than the Hindu god, or any other false god. I do not understand how by Middle Earth having a god of one form or another makes a wizard, an agent of said god, and who uses magic, acceptable. This is a wholly different object or worship, and doesn't justify the "spiritual" power possessed by Gandalf being called something different from "magic".

And Lee, I never meant to call you or Oppie hipocritical, I was only pertaining to your chosen argument. And remember, I am not trying to put a guilt trip on you either, or tear down LotR. I am a huge LotR fan, and always will be. However, in this instance, I cannot see how you can find fault with one, and not the other. I cannot help but think that you were prejudiced against HP from the start, merely from the whole "magic" thing surrounding it and its story.

Have you guys (Oppie and Lee) ever read the HP books? If you have, please tell me of the certain instances that were offensive to you, or your religious beliefs. Otherwise, I don't even know what you're complaining about in HP.

I am not offended. I just like making you mad.

Gandlaph did not use magic for himself. It was strictly for the good of middle earth, not his own. He gave up his life for this. there is also another point to this. J.R.R. Tolkien was a Christian. He had Christian views which are plainly seen throught the books. This is but futher confirmation that my hunch is nothing more then correct.

2. Nothing is ever simple Stuart, get over it.

3. Alterior motives? Hmmmmmmmmm, why did Harry learn magic. *thinks to self.*

4. He also condemed evil power.

5. Reserved for Lee, lol.

6. BAH!

7. Good boy.

Then go read it, it will do you a great deal more good the us telling you whats inside of it. And prejudiced, hardly. I found out a few things about Harry potter before I began to dislike it. Words are words, nothing more. One alone would never compell me to prejuice against something.
6.

Gandalf did too. Like the Balrog. He was not thinking about anything else when they were falling then to get rid of that enemy. While on the bridge, his concern was for Frodo. But, once they fell.....Gandalf didn't need to worry about anything then using all his powers to help HIM defeat the Balrog.

Then what about the hobbit, when he escaped in a flash of lighting to escape the goblins who nabbed the rest of the group. He didn't do it to save the other guys UNTIL he was out of harms way.

General Stuart wrote:

Lee, it is commonly accepted that Gandalf was sent to Middle Earth by a "god". I've never read the Silmarilion, but I don't think that Tolkien ever stated Middle Earth's god to be the same as the Christian God. All I'm trying to say, is that to Christians, this god of Middle Earth, not being the Christian God, is no better than the Hindu god, or any other false god. I do not understand how by Middle Earth having a god of one form or another makes a wizard, an agent of said god, and who uses magic, acceptable. This is a wholly different object or worship, and doesn't justify the "spiritual" power possessed by Gandalf being called something different from "magic".

And Lee, I never meant to call you or Oppie hipocritical, I was only pertaining to your chosen argument. And remember, I am not trying to put a guilt trip on you either, or tear down LotR. I am a huge LotR fan, and always will be. However, in this instance, I cannot see how you can find fault with one, and not the other. I cannot help but think that you were prejudiced against HP from the start, merely from the whole "magic" thing surrounding it and its story.

Using your argument, Jeb (in the first paragraph) you can dump Aslan in Chronicles of Narnia too.

I definentally see your point in the last paragraph. It is a very good deduction.
Im short on time, Your friend General Lee

Iron Brigade General wrote:

Gandalf did too. Like the Balrog. He was not thinking about anything else when they were falling then to get rid of that enemy. While on the bridge, his concern was for Frodo. But, once they fell.....Gandalf didn't need to worry about anything then using all his powers to help HIM defeat the Balrog.

Then what about the hobbit, when he escaped in a flash of lighting to escape the goblins who nabbed the rest of the group. He didn't do it to save the other guys UNTIL he was out of harms way.

Because he couldent save them UNLESS he was out of harms way, dont you see. And Gandalph new that unless he defeated the balrog, it would continue to hunt Frodo down. His intentions were noble to the very end.

Oppie is right. I was thinking the same thing myself.

YAH so step off IBG go bug somebody else

DCCCfC aka General Lee wrote:

General Stuart wrote:

Lee, it is commonly accepted that Gandalf was sent to Middle Earth by a "god". I've never read the Silmarilion, but I don't think that Tolkien ever stated Middle Earth's god to be the same as the Christian God. All I'm trying to say, is that to Christians, this god of Middle Earth, not being the Christian God, is no better than the Hindu god, or any other false god. I do not understand how by Middle Earth having a god of one form or another makes a wizard, an agent of said god, and who uses magic, acceptable. This is a wholly different object or worship, and doesn't justify the "spiritual" power possessed by Gandalf being called something different from "magic".

And Lee, I never meant to call you or Oppie hipocritical, I was only pertaining to your chosen argument. And remember, I am not trying to put a guilt trip on you either, or tear down LotR. I am a huge LotR fan, and always will be. However, in this instance, I cannot see how you can find fault with one, and not the other. I cannot help but think that you were prejudiced against HP from the start, merely from the whole "magic" thing surrounding it and its story.

Using your argument, Jeb (in the first paragraph) you can dump Aslan in Chronicles of Narnia too.

I definentally see your point in the last paragraph. It is a very good deduction.
Im short on time, Your friend General Lee

Well, the only reason I used LotR as a comparisson, is that I know that Oppie completely approves of it, along with the magic used in it. So, if I knew that you two liked the Chronicles of Narnia, I'd be able to use that as supporting evidence also, naturally. But I think that LotR serves well enough for my point.

And are you being serious, Lee, with the "I definitely see your point" thing, or am I to take that as sarcasm? (the smiley face kind of confused me lol) If you were serious, I congratulate you on keeping an open mind, even in the middle of a debate. If not... oh well.

The Opposition wrote:

I am not offended. I just like making you mad.

Mad? Trust me Oppie, you'll know when I'm mad. Somehow.

The Opposition wrote:

Gandlaph did not use magic for himself. It was strictly for the good of middle earth, not his own. He gave up his life for this. there is also another point to this. J.R.R. Tolkien was a Christian. He had Christian views which are plainly seen throught the books. This is but futher confirmation that my hunch is nothing more then correct.

About Gandalf, he had to use magic to save himself many times. It's senseless to deny this, because Gandalf obviously knew that he wouldn't be able to help Middle Earth very well if he was dead. So, you're whole point here is pretty empty.

Oppie, about Tolkien being Christian, can you show me conclusive proof that J.K. Rowling is an atheist? And about his 'god' in his books, I already stated my opinion on this. Lee seemed to understand it; why can't you? It doesn't matter if Gandalf used magic given to him from a god. All that matters is whether that magic came from the Christian God, at least, that's all that matters if you're trying to justify the "godliness" of the magic used in LotR, which is exactly what you're trying to do. And, I think it's obvious that the Middle Earth god is NOT the Christian God. Therefore, according to your logic, the magic that was gifted to Gandalf was given by a false god, and therefore unbiblical.

However, you, along with many other people, seem to justify the magic used by Gandalf, by rationalizing that it came from a power that represents Good. Well, by that logic, Harry Potter, by using magic that was given to him to fight Evil, and support Good, is just as exempt from critisism on this line. Do I make sense?

The Opposition wrote:

2. Nothing is ever simple Stuart, get over it.

3. Alterior motives? Hmmmmmmmmm, why did Harry learn magic. *thinks to self.*

4. He also condemed evil power.

5. Reserved for Lee, lol.

6. BAH!

7. Good boy.

I couldn't make any sense out of this gumble, it's pretty incoherant.

The Opposition wrote:

Then go read it, it will do you a great deal more good the us telling you whats inside of it. And prejudiced, hardly. I found out a few things about Harry potter before I began to dislike it. Words are words, nothing more. One alone would never compell me to prejuice against something.

Well, Oppie, for a guy who's so concerned that I read the Silmarilion, I'm amazed you feel yourself eligible to debate on a topic that you haven't read ANY books in. But I DO know that Tolkien never similates the power of Middle Earth to the Christian God. So, I don't see your point...

And like I said before, if you read up on HP before coming to dislike it, just site a few of the instances of the movies/books that so morally/religiously offended you, and caused you to dislike it. Do this, and then come back and we can talk. Otherwise, you're arguing for no reason, and then this ceases to be a debate.

I'll get back to you when I resurface my eyeballs, thats a lot to read haha, seriously i have no time, I'll readt it and respond soon.

General Stuart wrote:

DCCCfC aka General Lee wrote:

Using your argument, Jeb (in the first paragraph) you can dump Aslan in Chronicles of Narnia too.

I definentally see your point in the last paragraph. It is a very good deduction.
Im short on time, Your friend General Lee

Well, the only reason I used LotR as a comparisson, is that I know that Oppie completely approves of it, along with the magic used in it. So, if I knew that you two liked the Chronicles of Narnia, I'd be able to use that as supporting evidence also, naturally. But I think that LotR serves well enough for my point.

And are you being serious, Lee, with the "I definitely see your point" thing, or am I to take that as sarcasm? (the smiley face kind of confused me lol) If you were serious, I congratulate you on keeping an open mind, even in the middle of a debate. If not... oh well.

To answer your first paragraph what I was saying is... The Chronicles of Narnia never says that Aslan is supposed to represent Christ in the story... But I believe it is self evident that it is being implied... So I was saying that using the argument you used to "dump" LoTR (I know you werent really dumping it) you could use dump Aslan in CoN though it is basically undeniable that he was meant as a analogy of Christ.

About you second paragraph... I was agreeing with the part of one of your posts which said that Oppie and I came to this debate with a presuposition. This is absolutely true.

next of your posts...

General Stuart wrote:

The Opposition wrote:

Gandlaph
did not use magic for himself. It was strictly for the good of middle
earth, not his own. He gave up his life for this. there is also another
point to this. J.R.R. Tolkien was a Christian. He had Christian views
which are plainly seen throught the books. This is but futher
confirmation that my hunch is nothing more then correct.

About
Gandalf, he had to use magic to save himself many times. It's senseless
to deny this, because Gandalf obviously knew that he wouldn't be able
to help Middle Earth very well if he was dead.

Thats the whole point. You said it all in that last paragraph... He was helping middle earth by defeating the balrog.

General Stuart wrote:

The
Opposition wrote:

Then go read it, it will do you a great deal more good the
us telling you whats inside of it. And prejudiced, hardly. I found out
a few things about Harry potter before I began to dislike it. Words are
words, nothing more. One alone would never compell me to prejuice
against something.

Well, Oppie, for a guy who's so
concerned that I read the Silmarilion, I'm amazed you feel yourself
eligible to debate on a topic that you haven't read ANY books in. But I DO know that Tolkien never similates the power of Middle Earth to the Christian God. So, I don't see your point...

And like I said before, if
you read up on HP before coming to dislike it, just site a few of the
instances of the movies/books that so morally/religiously offended you,
and caused you to dislike it. Do this, and then come back and
we can talk. Otherwise, you're arguing for no reason, and then this
ceases to be a debate.

Oppie Im afraid he is right... I should probally read them or about them (IF I feel that it would be wrong to read them.) before I say that they are bad. (though I have been trying to be very careful to not say that they are bad) I have not read them or even much about them. All I know is that they sound very witchy and have some bad morals.
Your Friend and humble servant,
General Lee

Ok, about CoN, you're only assuming that Asland represents Christ. If this is how you see it, that's fine, but nowhere is it stipulated that this is the fact of the matter.

And I really don't see how the Gandalf thing has dragged on this far, but you're fighting a losing battle. Tell me, when Gandalf had the "wizards duel" with Saruman, was he thinking of the good of Middle Earth? Not necessarily. But then again, whenever anyone, anywhere, does a good thing, you could say that they did it for the good of mankind, couldn't you? I threw away my soda can in a recycling bin instead of littering... Why did I do this? To save mankind? Or because I want a clean floor?

Gotta go, I'll continue this later.

Ok For those of you who like HP, the new book is coming out July 21st. That is all. Cioa

General Stuart wrote:

Ok, about CoN, you're only assuming that Asland represents Christ. If this is how you see it, that's fine, but nowhere is it stipulated that this is the fact of the matter.

And I really don't see how the Gandalf thing has dragged on this far, but you're fighting a losing battle. Tell me, when Gandalf had the "wizards duel" with Saruman, was he thinking of the good of Middle Earth? Not necessarily. But then again, whenever anyone, anywhere, does a good thing, you could say that they did it for the good of mankind, couldn't you? I threw away my soda can in a recycling bin instead of littering... Why did I do this? To save mankind? Or because I want a clean floor?

Gotta go, I'll continue this later.

No Im not assuming it... Have you read the books? (not to use your own argument... lol jk) Ask Civility... Aslan was meant by CS Lewis to represent Christ... That is why awhile ago the was a court case over whether or not CoN should be read in schools.... I agree it is never stipulated but it is so obvious it isnt funny....

Saruman was a fallen angel... It is not self serving for an angel to fight a fallen angel.... (this might be a silly opinion but its mine... lol)

Your friend General Lee

Lee's right, you are using the same type of example over and over again, and its getting old

I didn't understand him as saying that... And you still haven't posted a part of the HP movies or books that offended you. Please do so, and stop dodging it.

I'm am dodging nothing, I believe you know what I have a problem with, isnt this what we've been arguing about Stuart?

All we've been arguing is the similarity between HP and LotR. Give me an instance in HP that offends your religious beliefs.

Read back sonny its not that hard

I'm getting tired of you ducking me boy.

I'm not ducking

Tired of you duckin me man.

If you're not ducking, site an instant where HP is offensive to the christian religion.

Ok, sorcery:D Are you happy? THAT is what is an offense. And now we are back to square one.

We've already been over this. And I have managed to state my point and move past it. But now you're giving up and trying to start all over? We could just go back to the begining and redo this, but that wouldn't exactly help your cause. So, please, answer the question correctly, it's not that hard. I know you have some kind of problem with scrolling the page up, so I'll restate it:

Give me an instance in HP -NOT JUST A PRACTICE, LIKE SORCERY, WE ALREADY KNOW ABOUT THAT AND HAVE DISCUSSED IT, AND FOUND IT TO BE A WEAK POINT- but a piece of dialogue, or an excerpt from the books, that happened to insult your religious beliefs.

Oppie, if your next post doesn't include a quote from HP, or a description of a scene from the movies, then you are consistently ducking me and my questions, and this ceases to be a debate. It then becomes a joke, seeing how long you can avoid the questions. You'd make a typical liberal politician, a regular Hillary Clinton.