Harry Potter

You tell him debski.

debski wrote:

You look at how the world is there are good and bad people all over the world. And there has been since forever. So, you started the thing about Christians, so here is my view, if you read the bible you will have noticed that there have been people using powers that are either good or bad. Christ for example used power from heaven to heal people, cast out devils. Then you have those who used secret societies and secret works so they could overpower people for their own gain. Christ and his apostals used powers from heaven to further the kingdom of God and help other people. There fore, good and bad have always been. So, Lee.. ha By the way, I think Harry Potter is not meant to favor cult beliefs. nananana

Are you saying sorcery, if used for doing good/fighting evil is acceptable? I dont think thats what you are saying but thats how it sorta sounded... I really am sorry but I dont catch what most of your post is trying to get at... I also agree with you that HP is probally not meant to favor cult beliefs but does it? Doesnt it influence the societies views on witchcraft? HP is a witch/sorcerer and he is being portrayed as not only being good but also being able to use sorcery for good... This is impossible according to the Bible but yet that is what HP is teaching... Thats my take on it...
Your friend
General Lee

I would never say that sorcery is ever acceptable. What I am saying is that there is good powers and also bad powers. We all know witches and wizards are not good. But I also see why people could take HP as being a cult. In cults they have the "good" and the "bad" but in reality they all delve into the bad. (Learned that from a guy I used to date, dumped him right away!) It all comes from secret societies. The only powers that have ever been used that are good have always been in accordance to what Christ taught and lived. He never would have done anything against the Laws of Nature like sorcery does.

Just a note for our debate, Christ was always being accused of using powers from the devil to preform His (Christ's) works. Was he or not?

No he was not.

Thats true about there being good and evil... and about it being portrayed in HP... but yet you said sorcery is wrong... How then is HP acceptable when it elevates sorcerers to the "good" postition?
Also if HP fights bad sorcerers with sorcerery, what difference is there between them? What makes HP "good" and atleast some of the other witches bad? Its like a movie I saw about a robber... and this robber was portrayed as good and there were drug dealers and they were portrayed as bad... What is the difference? They are both acting in a way which the Bible condenms.

You have to remember that while you and I have the idea of right and wrong, there are others who can only see it in ways they are familiar with. I guess the same holds true for everyone really. But you must remember that while Harry is a wizard, and Lord Voltimort is a wizard the more correct term for him is sorcerer. The difference is a wizard is on the "Good" side and sorcerers are the "Bad". In the first movie Hagrid expains it, Voltimort went as bad as a wizard can go, they also refer to him using the "dark" arts. And his followers also follow the dark arts.
But JK Rowlings said it was not meant to make the wizard and witches be acceptable but to compare to the way the world is. That there is good and bad. You have probably heard the nursery rhyme Ring around the rosies, it is sung to children for a game, yet it is about a deadly desease and the falling down is the children dying. Does this mean that parents are intentionally wishing harm on their kids? No, nor does Rowlings intend on encouraging people to take up witchcraft. Or so she says.

What he intends is not relavent nor what ANYONE HAS EVER INTENDED relavent. I'm assuming you know of all the "good intentions" used to excuse atrocities, so I wont get into them. And uhh, sorcery is any power that humans try to use on there own. This falls into the catagory of magic, witchcraft, ect.. The disciples didnt have power, the power of Christ flowed through them. Christ's power is ultamite, he is the creator. He is the definiton of holy, dont prepose to say he uses the power of anyone but his father. And an idea of right and wrong?? So what! Everyone has their own version of whats right, but there is only ONE truth. Not two versions of the same truth, one. I like to describe it as looking through colored lenses of different sizes. They can all see the picture, but each in a different way then the other. Each in a distorted way. Thats why you have so many religions. Because of different perceptions that people have used because they wont accept the truth that has been set before them. They want it to fit to there agende so they tweek it a little. There's your secret societies, cults that have branched off from the truth to form something of there own. Here in CA the accult is overwhelmingly growing. Particulary with girls. Its the allure of power, being a witch. Notice how 2 decades ago people were throwin spit wads at each other, when God was allowed in school. Now, being goth is socially acceptable, and God has been forced out of the schools and courtrooms. Now, instead of spit wads, people are SHOOTING each other. See anything strange here? This is all because of the influence of things like HP, and other things that uplift a nature of violence and power over your fellow men. GOOD INTENTIONS are not enough, sorry. That will not clear you of responcibilty for what you have created.
Back to the "sorcery used for good". Absolutely irrelevant, you can try to dust off a painting with a horsehair brush, but it scratches the surface of the paint. Its still evil, do you understand?

HP dose not in my oppinion uplift the nature of violence, it probrably could but I don't think so, its how people are raised
which in part determines how they will, I have read HP many times and have not done anny thing bad as you say you can read or watch or listen to something and not actualy go out and do what its portraing, like shooting games they say that people who play these and then go out and realy do shoot someone thats true but not with evryone I have played shooting games and I have never went out and shot somebody, it all depends on how you are raised and how you are influenced by people or not influenced by people, do you get what I'm trying to say oppie?

coby wrote:

HP dose not in my oppinion uplift the nature of violence, it probrably could but I don't think so, its how people are raised
which in part determines how they will, I have read HP many times and have not done anny thing bad as you say you can read or watch or listen to something and not actualy go out and do what its portraing, like shooting games they say that people who play these and then go out and realy do shoot someone thats true but not with evryone I have played shooting games and I have never went out and shot somebody, it all depends on how you are raised and how you are influenced by people or not influenced by people, do you get what I'm trying to say oppie?

May I answer?
I get it and understand... But still though it may not be wrong to see it... Does it have a negative influence on those who are "less stable" than us? According to you maybe... So should we even support it? (btw I have played shooting games too. lol And I havent shot anyone either. )
Your friend General Lee

I'm with Lee and Oppie.

Lee: Jesus was told a few times he was posessed by demons.

He was called the devil himself once wasnt he?(btw we are off topic lol )

Civility_C wrote:

I'm with Lee and Oppie.

Lee: Jesus was told a few times he was posessed by demons.

I know that alot of his enemies said that but I dont see your point. Sorry
Your friend General Lee

DCCCfC aka General Lee wrote:

Civility_C wrote:

I'm with Lee and Oppie.

Lee: Jesus was told a few times he was posessed by demons.

I know that alot of his enemies said that but I dont see your point. Sorry
Your friend General Lee

I don't see you point either could you please explain.

It didn't have anything to do with the topic You has just said earlier, Lee, that Jesus was never told that he was posessed.

oh.

Yeah thats right.

You guys (Oppie and Lee, and Civ if she wants to associate herself with the losers lol), you're very right in one way, and very hipocritical in another.

You stated that "sorcery" is altogether evil, there is no good side to it, only bad. This is what is preached in the Bible, so it is commonly accepted. However, this is exactly what makes Harry Potter a FANTASY, a children's fairy tale. IT IS ENTIRELY FICTION. It doesn't mean in any way that these people are intentionally challenging God's will. They are enjoying a story that is completely made up.


Think of fairy tales, classis Disney movies, Santa Clause, and other such fantasies that are the staple and the treasure of childhood. Think of these, and images of ghosts, witches, princesses put under spells, princes with magical swords, and a jolly saint in a flying sleigh pulled by reindeer, all spring to mind... Do you see my point? Part of the wonder of youth is the "magic" surrounding it all. The unexplainable, and the unbelievable coming true.

And nevermind the whole concept of Christians playing "shooting" games, blowing up innocent people and killing left and right. Come on, who hasn't played these games? And yet we still acknowledge ourselves as Christians, even though killing is expressly outlawed by the Bible. And in the Bible, doing an act in mind (or in make believe) is just as bad as doing it in reality.

And here you are, choosing to pick on Harry Potter. Frankly, you might have had a point at one time, but the hipocrasy of it all destroys any point that you might have had.

The way I see it, the important part of living in today's world is just using common sense, doing the right thing, and conducting yourself with morals and standards. Don't commit crimes or bring harm to anyone else. Isn't this very basically what the Bible tells us? If everone would just do this much, well, the world would be a better place. And that's putting it lightly. So, I don't see why anyone would feel the need to try and tear down Harry Potter.

Hee hee hee. Fiction, reality, imagination, whatever. Your still responsible for the ideas you put into peoples heads.

And disneys classic movies are about poeple without the aid of magical arts overcoming evil sorcery, sleeping beauty, snow white, etc. Though there are fairies that wield magic, which makes my argument somewhat unfounded. But then again Disney is not my favorite producer either. And Santa Clause? Haha, please, no child needs fantasy. The truth is far more intriguing then anything fantasy can offer.

And killing innocent people? This is weak but its a point, so I'll say it anyways. If your playing a game like that, you are vanquishing evil. Killing the enemy when nessecary is not sin. We know this from scripture.

Dont talk to me about hypocrisy boy. Better yet, make sure you know we are being hypocritical before you say so.

You want to know what very basically the bible tells us to do? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength. This goes far beyond daily morals.
Listen to yourself, you cant see why? Influence. Thats why.

The Opposition wrote:

Listen to yourself, you cant see why? Influence. Thats why.

I didn't get this bit at all, so, please explain.

Oppie, you're trying to excuse shooting games because, supposedly "you're vanquishing evil". Yeah, right, like every video game out there is only for "vanquishing evil" and nothing else. What about Grandtheft Auto? I know that one's pretty extreme, but it's not alone, believe me. I don't think you have an argument here. What about "Knights of the Old Republic"? This allows you to become a sith lord, and therefore kill the forces of Good; the same with the Battlefront series, everytime you play as the Empire, you are attempting to destroy the forces of Good. All I see in this situation is that you are playing a game, and nothing else. But according to your logic, it is a crime against God and humanity.

You're right, you don't have a point when it comes to Disney movies (btw, the Good used magic all over the place, as in magic armour, magic swords and weapons, etc). But that doesn't excuse you in the least; why aren't you out picketing to stop retailers from selling these "anti-biblical" sinner's tales? Or at least creating topics on this forum for these movies, to "lift the wool from the eyes of the people" and tell us how evil the creations of Walt Disney really are? But no, you only choose to pick on Harry Potter.... Why, I do not know. But I think I am fully justified in saying that your entire argument is riddled with hipocrasy.

And, Oppie, when I said that people should live their lives using morals, standards, etc., I was talking about EVERYONE, not just Christians. I was thinking of the world in general, including Buddists, Mormons, Paegans, Catholics, etc.


And my last point: I don't know of ONE person who is a Christian and doesn't like Lord of the Rings. In other worlds, I think it's safe to say that all Christians have embraced the Lord of the Rings series. But aren't they just as loaded with "wizards" and "magic" and "spells" as any Harry Potter movie? And doesn't Good use magic also, not only Evil? Once again, I think I am justified in saying your position is one of hipocrasy.


And on top of all that, you try to tear down the fantasies of childhood, and treat them as rubbish? I never would have believed you capable of such a thing; I find this terribly disappointing.

I don't see how you could have made your last posts with a straight face.

By the way I dont like grand theft auto. And you have a choice to choose between what to become. I HAVE that game. I became the most powerful jedi in the galaxy and destroyed My evil apprentice. so much for that. And with battlefront, ooooo. There is a line to be drawn. I DRAW IT HERE. Battlefront is not bad in my oppinion. When you are scrimagin each other it is not the same as in the movies, where there is a balance of light and darkness a stake.

I knew you were going to use Lord of the rings on me. Eh hem, every bit of magic in middle earth is either a blessing from the isitary(that what they are called? who knows, lol), who in my oppinion represent God in Lord of The Rings], or a blessing from the eldar, and we all know where their power is drawn from. Sounds like divine intervention to me. BOO YAH. Nice try Stuart. AND DONT YOU TALK TO ME ABOUT MY LOGIC! lol. And I'm not out picketing because I dont have any picket signs:tongue: Or spray paint. And for that matter, you cannot picket something merily because it goes against your faith. The law doesnt work that way. If that happened every Jew would be trying to get pork banned from The Panda Express.

Ha, you make it out to be something that it isnt. Shrouding the truth never did anyone any good. Childhood fantasies are no exception. Btw my face is never straight, its more like round, with differrent angles to it.

The Opposition wrote:

Btw my face is never straight, its more like round, with differrent angels to it.

So, you have heavenly angels in your face? Oooooook. Just so you know, that sounds kind of conceited.


Ok, your Lord of the Rings analogy is totally worthless, because nowhere in the books does Tolkien even use the word "God", to my knowledge. So, by you assuming that all the power being used by the forces of Good comes from some heavenly body that is their form of God, doesn't prove anything. Its all an assumption.

Besides that, weren't you saying that ALL magic was evil? By admitting that Gandalf was a WIZARD and used MAGIC, you're giving up your argument, or, at the very least admitting your stance is hipocritical. And if you try to say that it was "divine intervention" and therefore "heavenly magic", it is not magic that comes from the CHRISTIAN GOD. It might, in fact, come from some supernatural being, but nowhere is it stated that it comes from the Christian God, or even from one god. Tolkien is very vague in the books on this issue, as far as I know, and leaves alot to the imagination.

But the only thing that is certain, is that Gandalf, who is a wizard, used magic for GOOD, not for evil. This in itself seems to excuse him, right? Well, I can use the same logic to say that Harry Potter is totally exempt for using magic, because he uses it for GOOD, not for evil. He uses it to vanquish evil. To destroy the enemies of Good. Doesn't this make Harry Potter just as guilty of violating the Bible as Lord of the Rings? In both circumstances, two heroes, one who we assume believes in God, and another who we know is a servant of some god, use magic, and use it for Good, to destroy the power of evil.

Please tell me where they differ so greatly, so as to attract your enmity towards one, and your love towards another.

ANGLES. ANGLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its called a typo, sheesh lol.

Your theory on tolkien is also assumption. Sorry Buddy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but sorcery is magic created for your own use. Saurons ring, the nine rings, ect. Gandalph's powers were a gift from, I still hold to me thory, God. He is not so vague actually, If you re-read the books from time to time you begin to catch suttle elements.


Somebody help me out here, where is my backup.

lol, LEE GET ON NOW I'M RUNNING DRY HERE!

Harry's magic was a gift too, he was gifted with it from birth. He did not "create" it for himself at all. So, yet again we find another similarity between HP and LotR. Please tell me where the major difference is, that makes you hate one and love the other.

EDIT: And by all means, please tell me where Tolkien alludes to God, or any god for that matter. I'm not saying I know everything about Tolkien's reflections of God in Middle Earth, but so far you've only made hints that there are "subtle elements" supporting your statements. Please show us a few.

I am not being hypocritial if I am not even sure what is Biblical Jeb. BTW my dear Jeb Oppie is right (in my opinion) LoTR is different. I hate it that Tolkien aplied the term wizard to Gandalf... He was not a wizard in the way he acted, he was a seer.
Question 1: Did Gandalf use "magic" for himself in LoTR?
Question 2: Did HP use magic for himself in HP?
Question 3:Was there a diffence in how this "power" was gained/used?
Question 4: did Gandalf reject wrong power in LoTR?
Question 5: Did HP reject wrong power in HP?
Question 6: Was the power in HP something that was viewed as being able to be gained by other humans in HP?
Question 7: Was the good "power" in Middle earth something that was viewed as being able to be gained by humans in Middle earth?
Statement 1: Oppie is right. The power in LoTR was given to the "wizards" by the "God" of middle earth. (If you havent read the Silmarilion {the explanation of Middle earth by Tolkien} there is not alot of point in us trying prove it to you. Will you accept our word for it or will you read it? lol)
Statement 2: HP though a special Human was a human. Gandalf was not human he was "angelic being" (read the Silmarilion)

I understand that your stance that we are being hypocritial but I hope I am not being and am definentally trying not to be. Btw I have never said that it is sin to watch HP nor have I been trying to give you a guilt trip.

Your friend and humble servant,
General Lee